Interview: Navigating Life's 'Messy Middle' with Makeda Pennycooke

Listen to Interview: Navigating Life's 'Messy Middle' with Makeda Pennycooke

00:04 

Hey there and welcome. Are you a woman who is unapologetically ambitious, but you're also deeply focused on honoring God, loving your family well and pursuing meaningful work? Well, you've come to the right place. My name is Dana Byers and you and I are going to be fast friends. Let's get started.  

00:29 

Before we get started today, I wanna take just a moment to share with you a comment from one of my clients. She said, I am a couple of months removed from my last coaching session, and I still find myself regularly using strategies and techniques that I learned during my time with Dana. She wasn't just a short term coach. She taught me how to coach myself for the long term. Thank you, Tracy, for those lovely words. It is so fun to get to work with you. If you'd like to learn about what it looks like to work with me, go to Dana by coaching.com/get coached.  

01:06 

Well, hey there everyone. Welcome to another episode of Been There, learned That, and today we're doing one of my favorite, favorite things and that is to introduce you to someone. I think a lot of someone I've known a long time. She is an incredible woman, a great leader, and she is a coach. So you are in for a treat today I invited my friend, Makeda Penny Cook, to come have a conversation with us about of course, how she coaches, what she coaches about. But whatever we talk about, it's gonna be great. I'm just telling you, the handful of conversations over the years that we've had have really been energizing to me, encouraging to me. Makeda is good to just kind of drop a comment that you find yourself thinking about down the road. So listen up, you're probably gonna wanna listen to this one a second time. I can tell you that now even before we really finish recording. Makeda, welcome to the podcast.  

02:07 

Hi Dana. And hello everyone. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for our conversation today. Really looking forward to it.  

02:14 

Me too, me too. And I wanna start by giving our listeners a little bit of context. I love getting to share kind of the behind the scenes of how we connected. And you and I were talking about this really before we hit record and we had the same memory. So I'm gonna say this is correct. It's been a while. So I was thinking I am 80% confident this is how we met. But I think we first connected online. We've actually never met in person, but we first, we have not connected online, probably back in 2006, maybe 2007. And it was way back in the day when I had a blog going and you reminded me, it was shortly after we had adopted our daughter. So we are talking 16, maybe 17 years ago, which doesn't seem possible at all. It seems like 16, 17 years. I was telling you, it used to seem like a lifetime to me. And now it's like, how have our lives passed all that time? Yeah, it's all been good time. 'cause you and I have developed a passion for coaching at the same time we're getting to work with all sorts of amazing people. So it is fun to have you here. Now, did I miss anything about the context of our story? Anything that you would add? No,  

03:33 

I think that that's correct. I think I found you on a random Google search, maybe. I don't even remember how I found that blog, but it was the blog that introduced me to you guys. And I followed your journey and then we connected online. And when people tell me you can't build relationships virtually or you can only build relationships in real life, I tell them no. I have a lot of evidence to support that that is not actually not a hundred percent true. So yeah. Yes.  

04:01 

And I love how that works too for people who follow Jesus that, like I said, we've never met in person. I believe we'll be together in heaven. But I also have had seasons where it's like, oh gosh, I haven't, you know, seen, I haven't either I've not been online for a long season or I'm working a different job or something and I come back, pop in and there's Makeda and we can just pick up like before. Yeah. And I think that's a really unique thing about community that we can really lean into like, oh wow, this is a person who I'm learning from, who I wanna share with. And also, you're certainly someone who I know has a wealth of wisdom to share with the community today. So let's just kind of dive into a conversation to keep in mind what it looks like to coach people, as you would say, through the messy middle, your coaching business serves people who are in the messy middle and wow, what a phrase, right? The messy middle. As soon as you said that to me, I went, well, that's extremely relatable. I've been in messy middles in probably every area of my life, I would think, you know? Yeah. So of, of all, what led you to doing this work?  

05:13 

Yeah, I love that phrase, the messy middle. I can't take credit for having created it or came coming up with it. I just thought it really embodied the space that I feel like my genius lives. So what led me to this work? I've been a coach now for 10 years, no, 11 years. Yeah. I got certified in 2013. At the time I was on staff at a church. And through a variety of circumstances and situations, I made the decisions to transition from being on staff at that church, largely because I was starting to ask myself some theological questions that I felt I couldn't fully explore while I was on team. Yeah. And the decision to leave that organization really dropped me into this really disruptive, chaotic, full on middle of the storm sort of space as my theology, my faith in God always remained, but sort of what that expression looked like started to shift and evolve.  

06:18 

And I spent five years, the best way I could describe it is I'm in the middle of the ocean. There is a category five hurricane blowing around me. I'm trying to move from one boat to another boat. Neither boat is anchored. And at any point I'm going to fall in the ocean and die. That's how I felt for five years. Fun times, fun times. So there was a lot of changes that I was navigating during that season. I was transitioning into being an entrepreneur, which I had never imagined I would become an entrepreneur. I was becoming a coach. And though coaching was my normal leadership style, it is my natural leadership style, I had never actually done that as like in its official capacity. And then there were these changes around how I lived out my faith that was also happening. So it was having all these big huge changes that were happening in my life.  

07:14 

And as I came through that, so as I got on the other side of that five year period, it would take me another couple of years to really feel like I had my legs underneath me again. And in sort of thinking about what that season was like, I realized that that's what change is. Change is this incredibly disruptive thing that happens in our lives. Sometimes it's a small change. I change houses, right? Sometimes it's a huge change. I am getting divorced or something major is happening. But either way, the space between what was and what is not yet that middle is what I call the messy middle. And I realized that having walked through that very significant, messy middle, but also looking back over my life of seeing places where I've had a lot of messy middles, I realized that I had developed some tools and practices that supported me through that messy middle. And I realized that I could share that with other people and come alongside people as they navigate that space, that messy middle. And the challenge is that I can't tell you that the messy middle is gonna last hopefully not five years, but also probably not five days. Right? And so in my work, that is, my genius lives in that space, and it is a privilege that I feel I have when I get to walk alongside people through the messy middle. So that was the very long answer to your very short question,  

08:43 

But it's such a powerful answer because, well, two things. One, I think you gave a great explanation. Like you brought practicality clarity to what really the messy middle is. You know, some of us listening to this, this right now are going, okay, I might be in the messy middle in, you know, this part of my life or whatever part of my life. And I so appreciate your vulnerability and saying, Hey, I was actually in the messy middle in my spiritual life. You know, this is something that we don't normalize particularly for church staff members. Yeah. To walk through that and go, wait a second. If I don't have everything together and everything is not a hundred percent clear to me, then, you know, am I a bad person? Am I actually connected to God? Like, we have all kinds of questions that can come up, especially during various seasons of life.  

09:26 

So thank you for sharing that. You know, in fact, that brings to mind something, I don't think I've told you this, Makeda. So in 2015, I think it was, I was an executive pastor at a church in Indiana. And when I got hired into that role, actually I got hired into like an operations pastor role. And then I was promoted kind of to the executive pastor role. And I remember thinking, saying to Chris, my husband, you know, I don't think I know any other women who've done been in a role like this before. And then I was driving to work, I don't know if it was my first or second day, maybe it was my first weekend serving in that role. And immediately I was like, oh my gosh, Makeda's done this. And there was something about knowing someone who had done that before, like being able to identify with the person who has walked that path, that gave me confidence that I really think, God, I really, I really believe the Holy Spirit brought that reminder to mind that even though I think you at that point had stepped outta the role, it still was a sense of comfort to me.  

10:28 

And I just wanna point that out. 'cause I just remembered that as you were sharing. And I was like, I want you to know, I think all of us, just by living our lives, provide a sense of comfort and confidence to others. Because you've gone before a lot of people in a variety of areas. And then of course, look at you. You've gone before me as a coach as well. So I just, I just wanna honor you for that because I think as women, we see other women do things like, oh, I'm not sure I would do it as well as she did, but if she did it, I'm gonna give it a try. You know? And that is something that's really powerful that comes out of an online community, just knowing that other people are out there attempting those things that might be dreams in our hearts as well. So don't wanna get off on too much of a tangent, but I think there's a lot of  

11:09 

Beauty. No, but it attracts, it connects to this conversation because I think when we are navigating change or when we're going through things that are shifting and feeling incredibly disruptive, it can feel like we are the only person who's ever been through something or is going through something, even though on an inte, like we know that's not true. And still there's a part of us that's going, I'm the only person that's ever done this, and I don't know how to do this. And I, right. And so I like to share my story just to tell people, you're not alone and you're not the only one. And there is comfort in knowing that you are not alone, that you're not the only one, and that someone has traversed, maybe not the exact same path, but at least enough of this path to help you figure out your unique journey. So I think it does track just in knowing that, 'cause I think in change, we can often feel like we're the only one going through something.  

12:06 

Yes. Yes. And I think maybe even the other side of that coin is the thought that sometimes I have felt, I've had opportunities where I wouldn't say theologically, it's like a calling. It's just like, it's like, Hey, this is an opportunity. I feel like I could take it. And part of the motivation to give it a shot, even if I don't know if it's gonna work, is because I think part of the win or the payoff is letting other people see our journeys as well. Like our journey's not just about us, right? Our journey is about, yeah, the people who are watching us maybe miss the mark or maybe hit the mark, whatever that looks like. Not it's much about the outcome, but just like the, hey, if Makeda tried that, if Dana tried that, that is, there's a lesson in that. And I love thinking about that because I've coached a lot of women who kind of get stuck in what we call, one of my tools is energy leadership index.  

12:57 

We call a level four energy, which is often like a mom energy. And people can have mom energy, men, women, anyone. You don't have to actually have kids. The mom energy is, oh, I just wanna win for someone else. I'm willing to maybe not get as much of a win because I care about the people who I'm working with getting this win. So teachers have huge mom energy, right? Teachers in America just, wow, unsung heroes showing up all the time. Or this level four energy. I want these kids to have a win, even if my experience in the workplace isn't as much of a win as it could be. So I think we can shift to having what we call a level five energy experience, which is a win for us, and a win for the people that we lead or influence or engage with, because we realize, oh, this opportunity could be a win for me, but I also think it's going to be a win for other people if they see me give it a shot. So I'm thankful for all the ways you've gone ahead of me and so many other, you know, clients and women as well, just to say, Hey, this is possible because, you know, I don't know about you, but you're an entrepreneur. I'm an entrepreneur, we've got our own businesses. And it's like, all you have to tell me is, it's possible  

14:08 

I give it a shot. Just  

14:10 

Keep you saying it's possible. There's a chance.  

14:12 

Right. Right, right, right. No, I love that. I love that. What I love about that thing around possibility is that I think where some people get stuck, not some, I think where a lot of people get stuck, usually people come to me and they'll say to me, I'm stuck. And that becomes sort of the entryway into our doing the work. And I think part of why people get stuck is they're looking for certainty. And so people don't take a, you know, take a hold of a possibility because they want to know that it's gonna work out, or they wanna be able to see how it might add value, or, and sometimes you can see how it will add value just on an intuitive level, even if you can't articulate it. And it's the not being able to articulate it in clear, concise ways that sometimes keep people in familiar spaces, even when those spaces are no longer working. And so this idea of really holding and grasping possibility, part of that work is to really be okay with uncertainty, which is a difficult thing. 'cause most of us don't like being uncertain. Hello? Raises both hands,  

15:16 

Right? Yes. Yeah. You're so right. You know, we had a conversation recently, you and I did, about that certainty, I think you said one of us, I don't know, somehow outta the conversation, Kim, the idea that certainty is counterfeit comfort,  

15:34 

And sometimes we're willing to settle for counterfeit. Like, I mean, I, I, I know I have felt that in seasons, like, oh, I am willing to believe something that I don't know is actually certain. I'll tell myself it's certain, so I can sleep at night, or so I can, I don't know, shut it out of my brain or ignore it, or whatever, you know? And it's really hard to come to terms with that. But I also think, especially I know you've experienced this, I'm sure with clients, and maybe even in your own life, I sure have, when I get to that point of reckoning of I'm seeking certainty more than I am growth. Like I am holding, I'm pushing back against the opportunity to change because I'm so afraid of what that might mean. And I know I'm being like really vague as I say that, but that's been my scenario in seasons when we've moved or maybe, you know, starting a business, changing churches. I mean, all kinds of things like that are just like, gosh, even though I don't quite think this is ideal, I'm willing to keep that counterfeit comfort of what is known to me.  

16:45 

Yeah. So I have a couple of thoughts. Let's hear it. My thoughts come in pairs, so you'll hear me say that a lot today, probably. All right. So my first thought is sometimes the pain we know is better than the joy. We don't know. I'm gonna say that again. Sometimes the pain we know is better than the joy. We don't know. What do I mean by that? There comes a point where we know something isn't working. We know this is no longer a fit. We know that this is no longer a space that is going to allow me to thrive and grow. We know that we feel the ache of that. And it is so familiar and it is so comfortable, and it is so certain. 'cause I know how to function here. Sure. And if I go out of there and I come over here, sure, maybe there's joy and maybe there's possibility, and maybe there's magic, but also maybe there's pain and maybe there's disappointment, and maybe there's heartache over there.  

17:58 

I, I don't wanna do that. So I'm just gonna hang out right where I am because this is familiar. I know how to function right here. Which brings me to my second thought, which is, we know this, what I'm about to say is not earth shattering the magic, all of the magic in life lives outside of our comfort zone. It lives in the space of the uncertainty and the not knowing. And that is hard. That is so hard to hold that in your heart and in your body as true. And yet, I know from my own experience, and I know that as your listeners are thinking about this, they can recall, as I'm sure you can, the moments when you've taken risks and you've been able to say, oh my God, that was amazing. That experience that I had, that moment of joy, that moment of clarity, that connection with somebody that I was able to create all because I was willing to step outside of my comfort zone to experience that new thing, even when I didn't know what might actually come with it. And so, uncertainty is the hard part. And it is the getting comfortable, being uncertain is the key to moving through the messy middle, I would say.  

19:12 

And that's where you come in, right? Like the ability for someone to have a coach who isn't telling them what to do, who isn't saying, Hey, here's an exact plan A to Z, but instead, as you said, you walk alongside the ability to say you're gonna be in the storm. You're gonna have that, you know, experience that you described to us earlier about this experience of, I'm in the middle of the ocean, you know, there's this massive storm around me, but I'm not alone. Right? 'cause someone is helping me. One, they're validating my experience authentically, but they're also helping me remain, remain in the uncertainty. Because sometimes I'll dip my toes in the ocean and then I like pull it back out, right?  

19:55 

Like, yeah,  

19:57 

I've had some false starts when it comes to opportunities for change because I'm so pulled by that counterfeit comfort. But what you're saying, you know, about the, the willingness to recognize that the good, the unknown one, the unknown could be good. And often I think the unknown is good. Like the more I see it, the more I'm like, wow, why did I put this off for so long? That's a common thought I'll have. It could be the tiniest change in my life, or a big change. It's like, man, I delayed this. I'm so thankful that I won, you know, took the chance and left the certainty. But 2:00 AM experiencing this new life. And I think, you know, I've heard you say before, I, I love this phrase. It's so beautiful. I think it applies to so many areas of our lives. I've heard you say, I might be wrong, but I could be incomplete in my understanding.  

20:57 

And I feel like that fits into right what we're talking about right now, Makeda. Because you know, when it comes to making a change, we, our understanding probably isn't complete of what to expect, of what's ahead. And often our understanding is very, there's a lot of lack in it. Yeah. There's a lot of fear, hesitation. There's no sense of abundance. There's no sense of there. Wow. God could be in this, this could be incredible because we naturally protect ourselves. I think our brains do that. Our brains want us to stay in a rational moment and be logical so that we don't do something stupid.  

21:35 

Right, right, right, right. How  

21:36 

Things have I avoided doing? 'cause I'm worried about what maybe one particular person thinks, which is heartbreaking but true. So help me, like, give us a better understanding of this, this phrase. Like, you know, I, I might not be wrong. That's the phrase, I might not be wrong, but  

21:54 

Could be, may just be  

21:55 

Incomplete in my understanding.  

21:56 

Yeah. Yeah. So I think for me, that that got birthed out of my own experience of walking away from something that at one time, and I don't just mean the role at my, the church that I was a part of, I'm talking just life in general. I've changed cities more times than I could go. Right? And so it's, I'm leaving something and moving to something different. And when it doesn't, when I'm leaving, because it's no longer working for me, there's a part of me that wants to make that thing bad or wrong.  

22:42 

Ah,  

22:44 

In order to make it okay that I'm making the change, right? Yes. 'cause if it's bad or if it's wrong, then my making the change that makes more sense. Except when that thing, that place, that community, that job actually helped shape a big part of who I am as a person, right? So if I'm thinking about the folks that come to me who are like, how can I walk away from this thing, this job, this relationship that was such, think about trying to leave a marriage. It's such a big part of who I am and how I show up in the world and what it means. If I walk away from that just to walk, how do I justify walking away from it? And it's the need to justify the change that is part of what keeps people staying in places that are no longer working. And so what I invite is, what if we didn't make it bad or wrong? Yeah. And we simply said, it's incomplete. My understanding, my experience is incomplete. So now I get to take that with me while I add new layers of understanding to who I am and how I move through the world. So when I think about myself as a teenager, beyond just, we're teenagers and we're stupid and don't know anything. Well, sorry, lemme talk about myself as a teenager. 'cause I really thought I was all that animated too.  

24:11 

Oh, I was a mess. Yep.  

24:12 

Right? But as I grow and I develop, right, I discover new parts of myself. And if we are a lot and we're still breathing, I would argue we should still be discovering new parts of ourselves. Yes. And if I'm in somewhere that is going to limit my capacity to discover those parts of myself, then I believe that I would be doing myself a disservice by not being willing to explore those parts of me. Right. I've had a thought come up now twice, so I'm gonna say it, it ties into the needing to be right. And especially for those of us who are people of faith, the need to know that we're doing what God tells us to do. Right? I, I re I believe this so firmly that this is a hill I'm willing to die on. I believe that there are only maybe two, maybe 5% of the decisions that we have to make in life are burning bush moments.  

25:15 

Yeah. Go to Egypt, set my people leave. I will tell you like only a small percentage of the things that are happening in our lives are burning bush moments. And we can all look back over our lives if we've lived a certain amount of years and go, oh, that was a burning bush moment. The rest of the time, the other 95 to 98% of the time. I truly believe that the divine is saying, make a choice. Either way we gonna work it out who's make the choice. I don't think every decision or every choice is a burning bush moment. Because I trust and believe in the, the grace of the divine and the divine's ability to orchestrate my life in ways that will bring me back to where I need to be. Right. So yes, that was another thing that also helps me to be willing to risk and step out of my comfort zone and lean into uncertainty is the it it's not a burning bush moment. Yes,  

26:10 

Yes. Thank you for saying that. You know, it reminds me of something you said earlier where you were talking about you work within your area of genius. And I love that. You know, I, I have so many confident friends, I just love hearing those words come outta your mouth. Like, you know, your area of genius. And of course there's no pride in that. It's just like, Hey, I have this understanding I'm gonna use it. It saves you time. And actually, I think, think understanding your genius means that you aren't waiting around for burning bush moments. It means that you're going, okay, here's where I plug into this situation. Here's what I can contribute. You know, no problem. I, I can step in and do this. How would you say walking through the messy middle in your life and various seasons has contributed to your understanding of the genius that you bring?  

27:00 

That's  

27:02 

Good. So I think that in going through the messy middle, and when I think about how I show up with my clients and show up in the various other spaces where I get to bring my gifts into fruition and to use those gifts, I think that people feel safe with me. It's a, it is a thing that I've always been told. And having walked through some really challenging things in my life, when people come to me, I very rarely has someone said something. And I've been like, oh, I'm completely shocked by that. Right? Like, never do I have that thought. Right? I also know that there was a, I faced a lot of judgment for some of the choices that I made, the shifts that I made as a result of going through that space. And I, I remember being in my car just bawling one day because I had gotten so much judgment from someone that I thought was a good friend and someone who I thought loves me and cared about me.  

28:06 

And their judgment felt like a stab in the chest in my heart. Right? And I realized in that moment that that judgment could shoot, send me back to that, to that place of, I don't wanna face their judgment, so I'm just gonna go back and do what other people expect me to do. Oh yeah. Right. Rather than be like, okay, this sucks that it hurts that I'm just gonna keep going. Right? So, and I did and I chose that this sucks, that it hurts and I'm gonna keep going. But I say that because one of my guiding principles, there's several that I have at least three, but one of them is no judgment. No judgment. Right? I'm not judging you ever, and I'm gonna really invite you not to judge yourself. Right. So stay out of judgment because judgment will move us nowhere. And so when I think about how I developed, how I was able to lean into my genius was recognizing that staying out of judgment allows me to find that full expression.  

29:13 

Recognizing that when I had people come alongside me, people who were strangers to me, when I started this journey, strangers didn't know them. And they walked with me through that space. And the difference that that made. And I recognize that my ability to be a safe space for people is the gift that allows me to come along and walk beside them as they navigate that space. Because I am not a travel agent. I am a tour guide. I'm gonna come alongside you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In your work or in your journey. Because I know the difference between telling somebody where to go and walking with someone to where they need to go by not determining what the path needs to be for them, but walking it as it unfolds. So I would say my own messy middle helped me remember that I am a safe space.  

30:07 

It helped me lean into don't be judgy, don't judge. Right. Because judgment shuts us down and limits learning. We don't learn when we're in judgment. And truth doesn't come when we're in judgment. So staying out of judgment. Right. And also lots of permission giving. I had to give myself a lot of permission as I was walking through the messy middle and helping others. I'm not giving people permission, but I'm helping people learn how to give themselves permission so that they can walk through that. I think those would probably be the ta. Oh. And making friends with fear. Mm. Learning to be, learning to be friends with fear. Yeah. Yeah,  

30:44 

Yeah.  

30:45 

Yeah. Those were probably the big things that really helped me learn to walk through, which then helps me be able to lean into that particular gen that I have of walking with people through that messy middle. I'm not sure, did that answer your question? I feel like it  

31:00 

Did. Absolutely. Your answer is incredible because as I'm listening to you, Cher Makeda, I'm thinking literally this is someone who has submitted herself to the messy middle. Not, not just been like, okay, I'm doing it like you submitted to it. Like, God, I, you know, hands open. I'm trusting you with this. And the, I like to use the phrase a, I like to use the term paycheck. When I say paycheck, I don't mean it has anything to do with money. Like the dividend, the paycheck of you walking, like making friends with fear. You walking through the experience of being judged for making some decisions in your life.  

31:44 

The dividend, the paycheck of that is the understanding of the genius that you bring and your ability to communicate that with such clarity that I'm sure women, men, people are listening to you right now going, man, I wish I had that clarity. And so I don't wanna be prescriptive, but I do wanna at least say your willingness to make friends with fear, your willingness to get in the messy middle, to leave your comfort zone, to recognize that you might be incomplete in your understanding for what's ahead is what gets you to what you've just expressed to us. The understanding of the genius. And I wanna make a side note here. 'cause I always take the opportunity to get on a little bit of a soapbox, soapbox about this when I can. And that is that, you know, for people who followed Jesus and people who are in the church, I have heard a lot that self-awareness is overrated.  

32:38 

If we, if we focus on self-awareness, we worship ourselves and we take our focus off God, I actually believe, and this is just an opinion, this is not me coaching anyone, but if it's my podcast, I get to give my opinions. Let's go. So the, my opinion is that God gives us opportunities. Life is full of relationships, experiences for me to recognize, wait a second, what's it like to be in relationship with me? I might not be wrong. Yeah. But I could be incomplete in my understanding. Yeah. Therefore, if I lean into, in our case with you and me, if we lean into being coached, if we lean into our community, if we lean into those things, there could be insight there that actually we get to run with, understand our genius better that God gave us. Hmm. We aren't being prideful about it, but we understand it so that we can show up in a way that brings more impact.  

33:34 

And the last thing that comes to mind with what you said, Nikita, you explained it, you said it very lightly. Like you were just like, so I, you know, I get to show up and not judge people. So that says to me that you are a woman who, when you sit down to work, when you're connecting with your clients, there's not significant pressure on you. You just show up. Like you, you bring what you have to offer and you don't have to manufacture anything. And this is something else I'm really passionate about. Like yes, there are parts of our jobs, I'm sure all of us, me, maybe you, certainly our listeners, there are parts of our jobs that are not our favorite things,  

34:13 

But our life training experience of walking through the messy middle allows us to show up and support others. And so you happen to do that for a living. I think there are a lot of people who maybe are doing that as a middle manager somewhere, right? Like they show up and be themselves and we can remove that pressure from perf, like from that sense of needing to perform. And it allows us to have this light, easy, abundant approach. And that's where the change happens. Because we create that environment, we create that environment for other people. And I feel that in your answer. And I just, I think that's so beautiful. Yeah. I, if I could, you know, if there was something I could give everyone listening right now, it would be that sense of I don't have to perform. I understand who I believe I'm made to be and I can just lean into that and show up. It's in a volunteer role place where I get paid at the dining room table, you name it. I get to be that person. So thank you for that. You, you said, did that answer your question? Oh heck yes, it did.  

35:18 

Great.  

35:19 

Like clarity you have, you've  

35:21 

Said a couple of things that I'd like to tug if I can.  

35:24 

Hmm.  

35:25 

Absolutely. So again, thoughts coming pair. So we'll see how much of these thought, I think I've got three, we'll see if I hold onto them. So the first thought I have around this idea around self-awareness is selfish and bad. Bad. I heard this statement recently, and I promise it's just gonna stay with me. The person said there is a difference between living for yourself and living as yourself. Oh yeah. I'm gonna say that again. Oh, it's good. There's a difference between living for yourself versus living as yourself. Right? Right. We think self-awareness is, I'm just gonna be, you know, this is just who I am and I'm just gonna, I don't care about nobody and blah blah. That's living for yourself. Right? Yes. What self-awareness allows me to do is to show up as myself, right. The best leaders, the best leaders are those who are self-aware and willing to self-regulate.  

36:22 

That means I need to be aware of my own tendencies as a leader and think about how that impacts how I show up. And if I am living as myself, that means I am living out the essence of who I am and who the divine has made me to be. Yes. Which brings me to the second point, which is one of the driving principles that drives my work is this idea that there has is a seed of greatness that has been divinely planted into each one of us. And it is the responsibility of our lifetime to rise into that greatness. It is the responsibility of our lifetime to rise into the greatness that has been divinely planted into us. And nobody gets to determine what that greatness is except you and the divine 'cause that looks different for each person. And there is a, I read a devotional years ago, and it has stayed with me.  

37:21 

It was a physician who was writing this particular devotional. And I can't remember if he was a cardiothoracic surgeon or if he was a neurosurgeon, but either way, he was a surgeon that worked on one of the three things that are critical for us to remain alive. Sure. Right. Right. And this gentleman's sad that every time he walks into the operating room, he feels the delight of God because he was doing the thing which for that moment in his life, he knew he was meant to be doing. Yeah. He might, he won't always be neurosurgeon, cardiothoracic surgeon, whatever it was. Right? Yeah. But for that moment in time, that's the thing he was divinely ordained to be doing. Right. I, for me, my work is done in partnership with the divine, every client session, every facilitation that I do when I stand in front of a room full of people before I get up and do the thing, or as I start my day, you and me today, I get an opportunity to delight you in this work.  

38:31 

Mm. I get a chance to delight you. And may you speak in me, to me and through me. That is my breath prayer. Because I believe I do my work in partnership with the divine. Do I use God speak in my sessions? No. Do I still believe the divine is showing up every single time? Yes. Because there are times when things come out of my mouth that I'm like, Ooh, that's good. I should probably write that down. 'cause that did not come from me. Or a question will pop in my mind to ask a client. Yeah. And I'll say the thing that I, that I, since I heard and, and I'll watch 'cause I do all my sessions virtually. I'll watch, I'll watch the aha come, I'll watch the revelation fall. I will watch the moment where they go, oh, we've all had that. Oh, moment.  

39:18 

Sure. Right? Yes. So I do not show up with arrogance. I don't show up with a, I'm big and bad. But what I do show up with is a certainty that this is we, God and I are in this, the divine and I, we're doing this together and I'm certain about the skills that I have. And today those skills are being asked to be expressed in this way tomorrow that could look different 10 years from now, it will look different 10 years from now. Hopefully I'm sitting on somebody's beach. But, you know, like, and so the, the thing I really wanted to just lean into here is this idea that self-awareness is about discovering the greatness that you have and leaning into that as an expression of gratitude and as an opportunity to delight the divine. Whether you are a stay-at-home mom, or you are the CEO of a Fortune 500 company.  

40:17 

I don't care where you fall on that spectrum. You have an opportunity to delight the divine as you discover who you have been created to be. And nobody, and let me be clear, nobody can tell you what that is. You have to discover that. I know that there are a lot of people who want to tell you who you are. Yes. They want to tell you how you should function. They want to tell you what you should do. Lots of people want to do that. And what I know with absolute certainty is that wisdom comes from within. That wisdom will never be found outside of you. It will only be found inside of you. And now I will step off my soapbox.  

41:03 

Nikita, thank you so, so much for sharing those thoughts. You know, it kind of leads to a natural transition that, the last thing I wanna talk about is your most recent offering that I of course took advantage of, which is the moving through change exercise that you created. Yeah, I downloaded walkthrough that a bit ago and I was like, you know what, it's time to make sure I reconnect with Makeda one to show appreciation specifically, because it's that, that tool, that exercise personally helped me as I navigate adjusting, you know, my approach to parenting, I'll always be a mom, but I need to show up in a different way in my kids' lives. Now it would be toxic and inappropriate to parent them as young adults the way I did when they were two and three. Right. So like, yeah, I'm still in this role I was in when you and I met years ago, but it looks very different now, like you said.  

41:55 

Right? All the time these things change. So the moving through change helped me as I thought about how do I lean further into their young adult lives? I wanna be present, I wanna show up and be engaged. But I'm also trying to gain awareness. Like what's helpful to them, what's not helpful to them. It encouraged me actually to get some, you know, some feedback actually from one of my kids who really meant well, gave me just clarity about like, Hey, this would actually be more helpful instead of doing this. And I'm like, great. Good to know. I need that. 'cause we're gonna be in relationship as long as I have breath my lungs. So as I, you know, as I thought about that, I thought the question I wanted to ask you is, when it comes to, you know, moving through the change cycle which you created, what are some assumptions or behaviors that those of us listening that we might be making that actually hinder our journey through change?  

42:50 

Such a great question. All right, so let me walk people through this change cycle real quickly. Okay. So this, the, what I'm about to name or share is something that I created based on what I experienced and what I've watched my clients work through. And so I love easy. I really love easy. So the change cycle is five ees, the five ees of the change cycle. So the first E is the event. So something happens that's going to pop you into the cycle. You get a new job, you move houses, something happens that pops you into the cycle. So that's the event. The second piece is the emotions. All kinds of emotions are gonna show up. Fear, doubt, joy, happy, you're gonna run the full gamut. Guilt, all of it is gonna show up. And the emotions piece is a lot of the pieces that can be overwhelming for people. 'cause you do tend to get overwhelmed with the emotions when they show up. The third piece is the, oh, I just lost the word  

43:55 

Explore.  

43:56 

Thank you. Because I was rushing to enlightenment. I'm like, nope, we're not at enlightenment. You the exploration phase. Right. Gotta explore. And so the exploration phase is where you're processing the emotions, really trying to think about what will this change mean for me? What might be, what might be available to me here? What opportunities could this create? There's lots of exploring that is happening. And then you get to the enlightenment phase where it's the, oh, I have the ahas, I have the, oh, okay, I see it. Okay, that makes sense. And it, those, these ahas, I'm not talking necessarily big ones. They could be little ahas. Yeah. But what they do is those that those things that you get in the alignment phase move you through to being able to embrace the change and then be able to move your way through. Now I just walked that through in a very cyclical lin linear fashion.  

44:44 

Right. And that's not how change works, right? You're gonna bounce around that cycle as you walk through it, right? Yeah. So it's not like, okay, I'm in the emotions phase and now I'm exploring and now I'm ready. No, you're gonna start exploring and then you're gonna be back in the emotions, or you're gonna have enlightenment and some new emotions are gonna come. And so you're gonna pop around in them. Where I see people getting in trouble, you asked me about some of the behaviors that I feel can get people in trouble. The first we've already talked about, which is the need for certainty. Yeah. And people are like, I can't get to embrace until I'm certain about what's going to happen. Right. I need to know exactly what's going to happen so I can have a plan. And then it would be helpful if I had a backup plan and then if it would be really, really helpful if I had a backup to the backup plan.  

45:30 

Yeah. Now that was me when I was like beginning to like come out from underneath. I just remember back in 2018, and so I'm nearing the end of this five year period. I don't know that that at the time I could sense that things were not quite as disruptive. And so I started making plans and I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna do this, and then I'm gonna do this. And every time, when I say every time, I mean everything that I planned, oh gosh. It was like God was like, Aw, she's so cute. She think that's how that's gonna work. Nothing worked, nothing. So as I was coming into 2019, people were like, what goals are you of setting? None of doing nothing. Because I just spent an entire year trying to make things happen. And God laughed at me.  

46:19 

I learned an important lesson there though, which was plan, but hold loosely, hold it loosely. Right? I don't have time to walk through what that means. But that was a big learning, which helped me to drop into the be okay with the uncertainty pieces of it. The other thing that people, behaviors that people have is fear. And the ways that fear become, the voice of fear gets really loud. And so then they, they in an effort to silence the fear, they stay where they are and they don't keep moving. And what I like to say is, short of your life being in danger, fear is almost always pointing you in the direction you need to go. Fear is your north star. It is telling you where to go because fear stands on the edge of our comfort zone. It's the sentinel, the guard at the edge of our comfort zone that's saying, stay here.  

47:20 

It's familiar here, don't go there. And I say, walk towards your fear because that's where you're gonna find the magic. And so the need for certainty, the need to not feel fear and the need to to be right and to stay safe is, is another thing. And the safety piece is huge, right? And so part of what I do in my work is help people find the tools around them that are going to help them to stay safe as they walk through the messy metal. So if I had to pick the top three things that I find get in the way, those would be them. The need for certainty, the need, the fear of what is gonna happen and feeling unsafe, which is true. All of those things are real. None of those things are things to be ignored. They're things to find strategies and tools around. And that's what I do in my work. So folks can keep moving forward.  

48:21 

Thank you for bringing so much clarity to that Makeda, as you're sharing that I, I feel myself just nodding over and over, like, oh my gosh, yes. I can see that in my life as well. How those top three have certainly played out when I've been in the messy middle. And I think the I've, what I really sense you're doing is you're showing us, it's not an easy experience, but we can simplify it. We can even have the awareness of, okay, this is where I'm at right now. It makes sense that I feel this way. If this fear, like you said, apart from like running into danger, which is not wise, but if this fear is actually something I could befriend in an appropriate way, what would I lean into? Like what would that look like? And, and I think the coach in me is just getting very excited thinking about how you've brought clarity to this. Because I know as people listen, they're going to hear themselves in your story. They're hearing themselves and what you've just laid out for us, and thank you for that. You know, Makeda, you are always bringing such insight into people's lives, into mine, I'm sure your clients. And also just to our listeners today, I wanna thank you for that. And I wanna ask you, where can our listeners connect with you and the moving through change, PDF?  

49:37 

Yeah. So I have two things that I'd like to offer to the community. First is I have a free online community called The Gathering Place. Yes. It's a place for women. So the men who are listening, my apologies, it is for women, but women who are walking through change, who are wanting support, or even if you're not walking through change, although today, tomorrow, that could change, right? Sure. So The Gathering Place is a place for community, a place for belonging, a place where you can come with all your messy bits and pieces. And we're gonna welcome with No Judgment and lots of just full acceptance. Inside of The Gathering Place is a private podcast that is only available to members of the Gathering Place. We're currently on hiatus for the summer season two. We'll launch in the fall, which at the time that we're recording this, there are no new episodes, but by the time it goes live, there will be new episodes up in the Gathering Place.  

50:33 

I also offer inside of the Gathering Place a monthly q and a call, coaching call. It's an opportunity for you to get support around some, anything that you might be walking through. And then I offer a free quarterly training on a variety of topics. There are tons of tools and strategies, tips, tools and strategies that are already in there. So I would love for any woman or woman identifying person who would like to be a part of the Gathering Place, it's Makeda penny cook.com back slash the Gathering Place. And you can sign up there. And then I also would love to offer your community, at least for the next 30 days from the when this gets released, to get moving the Moving Through Change workbook at no cost.  

51:17 

Amazing. Thank you, Mickey. You'll  

51:19 

Need to use the code. BT lt, been there, learn that. So you'll need to use the quote BTLT for you to get it, but it will be available 30 days after this is goes live. And I'd love to offer that to the community.  

51:36 

Makeda, thank you so much for your generosity, your generosity and offering this free to the community and also just your generosity of sharing your story, spending time with us today, pouring in to others. I am grateful for you, and I know this time is really gonna enrich a lot of people who are listening to this podcast, not only now as it comes out today, but also into the future. So I'm grateful to you and I'm grateful to our listeners. Those of you who are here listening today, you have been confronted with what might be some difficult truths, and I'm very happy for you. I think that, you know, when we're confronted with those difficult truths, we have to make a choice. And so I wouldn't be a natural coach if I didn't just wrap up today saying, Hey, you've got a choice ahead of you.  

52:21 

You've got a choice to engage in the messy middle, or you've got a choice to remain in the counterfeit comfort. If you are looking to engage in the messy middle, Nikita would be an incredible person to engage with about this. I am so glad that you're gonna give it a shot. I believe you will. I believe you're gonna move towards the fear that's in front of you, and you will build confidence and an understanding of your genius as you step out in faith. All right, well that's it for this episode of Been There, learned that. We'll see you on the next one.  

52:56 

Thank you, Dana.  

52:57 

Thank you, Makeda. Hey there, podcast fam, can I share with you something that is close to my heart? It is my email list community here. I pour out my thoughts on leadership, on parenting, entrepreneurship and Jesus. It's where we engage and grow together. If that resonates with you, join us. Just head on over to Dana by coaching.com and sign up to receive my insights a couple of times each week. Let's journey together.